Curse

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 29, 2012, 01:58 AM // 01:58

I've been toying around with this for time in my mind while progressing far enough to actually get the heroes necessary for this. I left it along for some time, found it, and decided to post it here for potential feedback.

Some particular notes I remember:

-I suppose anyone physical wielding SY! can run this build. Paragons would be best. I even plan on toying with this on my sin.
-Blank spots are optional skills. For general use on the rit I had Painful Bond, but I'm concerned about its' usefulness vs energy cost. on the necro, I had Mark of Pain.
-Originally I had a most heal-oriented caster, but decided to throw another paragon (or in this case, R/P), and put GFTE on the casters (probably with caster spears) for the sole purpose or triggering Chorus of Restoration and selfish extra triggering of finale skills. I plan to find out how this works in actual execution, and particularly if it is even needed but I suspect it to work alright. The lack of healing on them if I don't include it worries me though (but it's equally likely I'm including too MUCH healing.)
-Stunning spear I originally had as Anthem of Fury. Either will do, preference depending. I think I had an overall lack of ideas for elites on that character.
-Balance in amount of healing could be tweaked, but it's hard to calculate without the hero build on hand to playtest. The way I figured it, most of the offense comes from Order of Pain and Standard of Honor adding damage across the entire board, so much of the rest of the builds can be rather defensive.
-Also toying around with the idea of eliminating the MM for a Smite monk or Mesmer
Why? I love paragon hero builds, and I think paragon damage is highly underrated. Might not pack as much a punch as other team builds, but the defense is solid

Do not use: where anti-shout exists. It's probably not even worth trying to work around it. It's probably much more simple to slap on another hero composition, even if it's just makeshift.

I'd love constructive criticism, if you know what that means. Be nice and respectful, and I'll pay attention to you

Lanier · Feb 29, 2012, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Back when the 7H update was first introduced, I messed around with a pretty fun paragon team build. It included 3 paras (anthem of envy, anthem of guidance, and song of purification) along with an orders, a minion master, and a dual backline. It worked well in general HM PvE, an best of all, no boring SY spam was required on my player character.

Googi · Feb 29, 2012, 02:46 AM // 02:46

The TPIY hybrid doesn't seem to be particularly useful, it lacks IAS, Bladeturn Refrain is subpar, and TPIY is unnecessary. I would replace it with a channeling/resto rit, it provides on demand heals and another copy of splinters.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 29, 2012, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Googi

The TPIY hybrid doesn't seem to be particularly useful, it lacks IAS, Bladeturn Refrain is subpar, and TPIY is unnecessary. I would replace it with a channeling/resto rit, it provides on demand heals and another copy of splinters.

TPiY is useful for triggering Finales, but is otherwise very much in the 'not extremely necessary' category. Bladeturn Refrain and Mending refrain are easy set-it-and-forget-it skills, but are likewise not particularly necessary. If you have any Mercs, you could get another paragon and be at a bit more or an advantage, but I made this assuming not.

I'm toying around with making that build a bit more bow oriented, with volley and some other skills. You could definitely use another caster instead, but I much prefer the 4 physical, 3 caster balance. three para/caster team builds have been done before.

There's also the concept of putting a demand heal or two on the SoS rit, and splinter and/or heals on the MM and get rid of the /P GTFE concept on the casters.

Wenspire · Feb 29, 2012, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Your Necro, most likely, will not need CultistFervor (if that's what the elite is). I ran something like that a while back and he never was close to running out of EN.

superraptors · Feb 29, 2012, 04:45 AM // 04:45

make one of your paragons take "never surrender"

also make your orders take "we shall return" instead of rez sig

get a paragon to take "wild throw" instead of anthem of guidance
than make another paragon take ench removal.

there is multiple things i would tweak.

anthem of restoration paragon id probably completely take it out.

here is what i think:
i probably wouldn't run a orders necro at all, its a pretty redundant character, you are better off getting 1 paragon to take anthem of fury and replace the blood nec for a curse nec with barbs and ench removal,

id get rid of all the motivation paras and just go full command/leadership shouts chants etc, like they're on fire, burning refrain and replace accordingly.

probably alot more you can tweak around

Kunder · Feb 29, 2012, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Player build could probably use Asuran Scan as the default PvE in place of TNtF. Obviously put TNtF back in in areas without block/miss stuff, but otherwise keeping SY up is 10x more important than TNtF.

Blood Necro definitely needs to go /Rt for a second copy of Splinter Weapon, along with Ancestor's rage and maaaaybe Painful Bond.

Would highly recommend making the rit either a channeling/restoration combo or a Rt/N with Curses. Needs ancestor's rage, drop Boon of Creation because its bad for SoS builds and Spirit Siphon is more then enough.

Definitely needs some hard prot. SY is useless against armor ignoring damage and TNtF is both only temporary and pretty weak anyway. Unless you can get some wide-spread burning for They're on Fire!, you need Prot Spirit and want Shield of Absorption. Make the MBer handle it. Would recommend a real MM build instead of a crappy bomber (esp since you have EBSoH already), but w/e.

Not gonna fully critique the paragon builds since all of their stupid anthems look exactly the same to me, but you definitely need an IAS on every one of them including yourself. Also The Power is Yours is a crappy skill that you should never, ever use. That goes double triple when your team is composed entirely of characters abusing leadership, soul reaping, or spirit siphon for infinite energy levels.

You have an excess of res, more than 2 or 3 shouldn't be needed, use those slots for something useful.

Demon's Dance · Feb 29, 2012, 06:41 AM // 06:41

All those resurrection skills are unnecessary(2-3 max). GFTE on non-primary Paragon is kinda pointless. I realize that your goal is a team of P/x and x/P but still. You don't have MoP/Barbs(MM have free slots for those

) and "Find Their Weakness!". You should use SYG OR SY not both since they don't stack(AFAIK). I prefer D/N orders because of the additional healing it provides. "Never Surrender!".

From my experience: multiple paragons synergy pretty well with SOGM hero... but I used a lot more "on next attack skill" than you do. Also my paragons were centered around Marksmanship/Volley in order to take the maximum from orders and MoP.

The main reason why those builds fail is called hex. I haven't found the solution but I use Convert Hexes.

bleh · Feb 29, 2012, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Nice build, have been toying around with 3 Para alot myself lately.
Lots of potential just so hard to get the balance right with so many choices.

My orders necro/p however ran with Help me, Never Give Up and fallback (+OoV +OoP). Help me was a good synergie with my monk and OoV is very powerfull vs armour, similar to Spiritleech Aura.

I found enchant removal, and wild throw ineffective for getting around block.
The block is usually back up with-in seconds in HM. AoG usually guaranteed a kill, and i usually leave the melee till last anyway so Wild throw was a tad redundant most of the time. +AoG = energy @ 4 adren.

Angelic Bond was usually my CBF choosing elite >_> tried 2 copies but the heros use it in time, 50% of the time : /.

As for hex removal 2 hex breaker aria + Roj was more than enough for most heavy hex areas. I just attacked through anti melee hexes >_> no problem.
Next im thinking, of including maybe a panic/healer or HB monk to take the initial pressure off.

Not really suggestions, more scattered thoughts lol >_<
Cheers for posting

Daesu · Feb 29, 2012, 03:33 PM // 15:33

- Having 2 copies of splinter is a good idea from above
- I don't see much heals in there

Hexes are going to be a problem, blocks too.

Pew · Feb 29, 2012, 10:58 PM // 22:58

At a first glance; Targetted heals, MoP + Barbs, too many ressurects.

If you're going to take a ranger with paragons, at least abuse Infuriating Heat! :>

I personally think your balance of Motivation to Command paras is slightly off. Another Anthem of Envy won't hurt, you'll have a decent specced "GFTE!", and you can get perma "Fall Back!" with 2 Command paras. (which has the nice effect of keeping your AR's up permanently.) Anthem of Disruption could fit in there somewhere for mad rupts too.

Wild Throw could be useful for annoying stances.

Prots (SoA + Prot Spirit mainly) can be thrown on your MM.

Mending Refrain is kind of useless? As is "SYG!" if you're spamming "SY!" (Only the highest armour bonus is taken into consideration)
If you have the slots on whatever you put your Curses skills on, Weaken Armour can be invaluable as all of your damage is coming from physicals.
The GFTE's on the casters seems like a good idea until you realise that you're locking that casters secondary, and in a build like this, secondary utility is a very valuable thing indeed. (ie, you're giving up prot skills, which you'll really miss.)

This is what I run in my paragon team, and the IV nuker carries a very helpful second copy of splinter (granted it's only at 10-spec), and helps to make up for the lack of AoE damage in the build.
I only have 2 targeted heals in the build, and sure, it's caused a few deaths, but it's better than nothing.
I plowed through NF vanquisher and the majority of HM EotN missions + dungeons using this, and the only problem I found was that it was vunerable to large AoE spikes like the ones from groups of Roaring Ethers and Burning Spirit groups, which is down to only having the small number of heals, but as soon as you get into the build then it's amazing how stable your team really is.

Chthon · Mar 01, 2012, 03:42 AM // 03:42

1. You correctly identify that the best hope for paragon teams is to abuse refrains/finales. However, you seem to be missing out on Burning Refrain, and possibly Blazing Finale and Purifying FInale.

2. The huge weakness of paragon-based teams is that the damage is very, very low because everything is single-target spear plinks. To the extent possible, try to flip them over to P/R and give them BArrage or at least Volley.

2.5. Depending on bar space and attribute spreads on P/R, it might be tempting to slip a couple pets in, and possible SoH on the Orders bar.

3. Spear of Lightning anti-syngerizes with Orders.

4. Song of Purification is a waste of an elite slot. You can get perfectly good condition removal from several non-elite options: Purifying Finale, MBS on the SoS (which you should be doing anyway for the spot heals), Foul Feast on either necro (possibly paired with Infuse Condition or Plague Sending).

5. Stunning Strike is questionable. THis is probably one of the places I'd rather see Barrage. If you really want dazed, consider BHA+Volley.

6. Unless it's there to keep refrains going, Anthem of Flame is probably worse than Burning Refrain.

7. Not enough hex removal, and HES has way too long a recharge to be useful. Someone is going to have to go monk secondary for Remove Hex and Cure Hex/Smite Hex. Probably the minion bomber.

8. When last I checked, the hero AI did not spam TPIY the way you want them to. Not even close. Unless the AI for this skill got changed in the last update, it's a waste of a slot. Probably replace it with Barrage.

9. Energizing FInale shouldn't be necessary.

10. Six rezzes is overkill. You shouldn't need more than 2 or 3.

11. I'm not sure Mark of Fury is worth having on top of Dark Fury.

12. Want to see Weaken Armor on a Necro. (It should go with EB, but I'm not sure they belong on the MB rather than the Orders.)

13. Andro Gaze goes better on a CUlt Fervor Orders bar than SoLS. (Though you might not need either.)

14. Agree with those suggesting a second Splinter. Orders bar is probably the better place for it.

14.5. (Unless putting pets on RP, then Orders+SoH might be better.)

15. Just run the standard SoS hybrid: SoS, Bloodsong, Splinter, Siphon, MBS, Spirit Light, PwK, optional (good choices for the optional are ARage, PBond, and rez). In particular, you need the spot healing from MBS and Spirit Light.

16. MB needs Death Nova. Even ahead of Putrid Bile.

17. As time goes on, I reconsider AotL vs JB and find that AotL is better in some cases, and this feels like one of them.

18. Concerned overall with the lack of prot against armor-ignoring sources. Should probably toss PS on whoever gets the hex removal. Also, if you go with more burning stuff (Burning Refrain, Blazing Finale), They're On Fire might be nice.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 01, 2012, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Alright, thanks for the feedback

Did a little tinkering and this is what I came up with:

-Added target heals on the SoS, removed GTFE on casters entirely.
-Added Prot and Remove Hex on the Orders, as it is where I could best justify it's energy demands.
-Added a second copy of Splinter on the MM, along with Enfeebling Blood and Weaken Armor (which are both plenty effective at low curses)
-R/P is now Barrage oriented command support.
-added blazing finale/burning refrain and "Their On Fire!" on paras
-removed Spear of Lightning
-Added another copy of Anthem of Envy
-Stunning Spear is now Soldier's Fury, Song of Purification is Anthem of Fury

Side notes:
-making the 3 paras P/R with Barrage/Volley is a solid tactic, and is a kind of a no brainer skill swap, and doesn't require much tinkering of builds, so I didn't bother putting it in.
That and I am not familiar at all with how well hero AI does with Barrage or Volley, and how their adrenaline does, especially in worst case scenario (little to no AoE triggering). All I've heard about Barrage and/or Volley is that heroes don't use it nearly as much as they should.

-I realize only adding Remove Hex is not too much added. If Hexes cause that much a problem, it won't be too difficult to swap out one of the Motivation SF para's elite for Signet of Removal + Aggressive Refrain instead, and drop Anthem of Flame.

-Keeping spears on the casters might not be too bad an idea, to trigger Order of Pain / Standard of Honor.

Questions:
-I am curious if Anthem of Fury is enough to warrant dropping the orders hero for Order of the Vampire instead.

Googi · Mar 02, 2012, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Unfortunately Orders of the Vampires wont work since: 'Party members under another Necromancer enchantment are not affected.'

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 02, 2012, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Googi

Unfortunately Orders of the Vampires wont work since: 'Party members under another Necromancer enchantment are not affected.'

Yes, I meant OotV over Dark Fury + Order of Pain.

Alay · Mar 02, 2012, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Possibly less effective (no minion wall/spirit spam) but keeps to the theme, using your first three paras + others...

Zealous on all of the paras with IAS.
Enchanting spear on OOTV.

Double Splint + Nightmare to keep more people hitting wacky.
Rather big amounts of healing
Burning/bladed refrain across the board for some extra silly.
Incoming for some easier mobility with kiting or whatever.
Order of the Vampire/Blood Bond for extra healing/damage, then weaken armor/spirit rift for cracked armor.

I dunno, still might be a bit too heavy on defense.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 02, 2012, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Yeah, if i had the mercs to do that i totally would! Alas, i wanted to make a hero team build that everyone could potentially use.